Paul Mooney interview
Paul Mooney interview on Michael Richards
PHILLIPS: Well, many who were appalled before are still appalled, apology or no. Joining me from the Laugh Factory in Los Angeles, where Richards is no longer welcome, comedian Paul Mooney. And from Chicago, radio talk show host Roland Martin. He's also executive editor of "The Chicago Defender." We just lost Paul. We had an IFB connection issue. We're getting that hooked up, Roland. Paul, can you hear us now? PAUL MOONEY, COMEDIAN: Yes. PHILLIPS: OK, good. I've got you both. I was watching it from off there on the camera, I saw that you got hooked in. You heard the whole apology on Letterman, right, Paul? MOONEY: Yes. PHILLIPS: OK. And, Roland, you heard it, too. ROLAND MARTIN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes, I did. PHILLIPS: Let's start with you, Paul. Your reaction to the apology? MOONEY: Weak. PHILLIPS: Why weak? MOONEY: It's not enough, because it doesn't match what he did. I saw the video. I think on David Letterman's show, they should have showed the video. They should have showed it in freeze frame and went step by step. That would have been good therapy for him, because he was like a raving maniac, and he had a complete nervous breakdown on stage. He outed himself. I think that's really his feelings. PHILLIPS: So... MOONEY: He said it on stage, now you know how I feel. PHILLIPS: Interesting. So, Paul, you don't think he got kind of caught up -- you know as a comedian, you get into your schtick. MOONEY: Yes, he didn't get caught up, no. PHILLIPS: OK, this was the real deal? MOONEY: You don't do that. If you're going to be funny, you're funny, racially or otherwise. You have a punch line and you deal with the situation right there, right then. You don't walk off stage. You don't do that and leave the audience. The audience is the -- I mean, come on, we're needy. Comedians are needy. We need that love. That's who you love. You don't walk away from people you love. PHILLIPS: Roland, your reaction? MARTIN: Kyra, Paul is correct when he says it was a weak apology. First and foremost, the "Letterman" show was the wrong forum for that kind of apology. He was not going to get the kind of questioning that he needed. If you heard the audience, they were laughing. They weren't quite sure whether to laugh at what he was saying, to be serious. And it was Seinfeld who had to say, hey, guys this isn't funny. Not only that. Another piece is when you really examine what he said, he not only said 50 years ago we'd have you hanging upside down from a tree. Well, guess what, 50 years ago, Michael Richards would have been in some oven in Germany being baked because he's also Jewish. He also said that in his comments, that I'm a white man. I can go get the cops and have you arrested. And so, his comments went beyond that. But Kyra, we're also making a very big mistake. He has said -- he said, he was heckled. In fact, the people who were there say he was not heckled. There was a large group that was talking. He was angered by them talking. Then after he addressed them, then a couple of the guys said, hey, my boy doesn't think you're funny. Darryl Pitts, who is from Chicago, who was on CNN on Sunday, he gave an eye- witness account. And so, trying to say, well he was being heckled when in fact he wasn't. He was angered because they were talking. PHILLIPS: All right. Just to step aside for a second, I want to ask you about the 'N' word for a minute. Paul, I remember ... (CROSSTALK) MOONEY: Can I say something before you say this. Excuse me. He's not a Jew. He's not a Jew. MARTIN: OK. He's either Catholic or atheist or something. He's not that. And as far as blacks and Jews are concerned, I don't think that two men in a burning house have time to argue. That's my point. MARTIN: I agree. MOONEY: So he's not a Jew. So people make that mistake. He may look it, but looks are deceiving. Bush looks like he's sane, but anyway go ahead, ask what ... PHILLIPS All right. I knew Paul had to get something in there. I was waiting for the ... MOONEY: Of course. PHILLIPS: all right, hold on. We'll step aside from that for a minute. I'm seeing two issues here. I want to get back to the 'N' word in just a second. But, let's get back to the anger part. Let's start with this. Sinbad talked about the issue, about what Michael Richards should do. Let's take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SINBAD, COMEDIAN: That was the worst apology I've ever seen. That apology was a piece of trash. You can't go on Letterman. That's the punk way out. You can't go on Letterman. You have to go to the heart of the people. You have to go to the club. You've got to go up there on black night, Sunday night, it's chocolate city night at the comedy club. You got to walk up there. You got to face that audience. (END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIPS: Paul is that what he needs to do? Does he need to go into the black communities, the black clubs, and say, all right, look, this ... MOONEY: For me, he should go on Oprah. Oprah will get him through it. He should go on Oprah. St. Oprah, St. Oprah will help him. But, look what he should do -- look, I'm an opportunist. I've already wrote a movie for O.J., Michael, and Mel Gibson. Three crazy men and thank god there's no baby. But anyway, look. (LAUGHTER) MOONEY: Look, I've known him for 30 years. What he has to do for me, he has to go to the Apollo. He has to perform at an Apollo audience. If he gets through that with the same act, then I'll forgive him. Or he has to go to Africa and adopt a black baby. PHILLIPS: OK, hold on. He's not going to go to Malawi any time soon, but seriously ... (CROSSTALK) MARTIN: Kyra, your question is a valid question. That is, whether it's Radio 1, whether it's BET, whether it's TV 1 Cable network, in terms of speaking directly to African-Americans. Because, again, when Mel Gibson made his comments, which were not recorded, the Jewish community came down hard on Mel, said, you need to go to a temple, you need to get training, you need to get education. And even in his comments last night on Lebanon, he talked about what was buried inside of him and that's what the real deal is. This is a country where racism is at the heart, it's in our DNA, and we try to suppress those feelings. So, what you saw was the real feelings of Richards coming out and he could not control those feelings. And so he was able to suppress them for all that time. He has to deal with that issue. That's his real problem. PHILLIPS: Well, now, Roland, Paul, you said you've known him for 30 years, has Michael Richards ever made any racist comments to you? have you ever gotten the vibe he doesn't like black people? MOONEY: No, no, no. Hey, look, he tricked me. I'm going to tell you something. I want him to go to Watts at midnight and look at the tower and wear red. If he survives that he can come back and talk to me. PHILLIPS: You know, I'm glad you're finding humor to deal with this because in a way you have to use humor to deal with this. But now Paul, let me ask ... MOONEY: I hear, I hear that -- wait, I hear that Mel is studying to be a rabbi so I'm happy for everybody. Go ahead. PHILLIPS: Roland, I'm glad Paul -- if anything this has given Paul more fodder for his next stand-up gig. MOONEY: I love -- I love every minute of this. PHILLIPS: Now, Paul, you were one of the first, you, if I remember correctly, you were one of the first, or at least the first comedian, to use the 'N' word and I remember seeing you live and you made black people squirm and you made white people squirm. Now obviously you weren't screaming it in an angry way, but you brought the word out. Tell me why you did that and do you regret doing that? MOONEY: No, because I've been called it enough. Where were you when it hurt my feelings when I was a kid. I'm from the south, I was called it enough when I was naive. The first time I saw a sign that said for white only I thought they only rented the rooms to nurses and doctors. PHILLIPS: Roland... MOONEY: Because they wear white. I was naive. But I have an experience with the word. Listen, when you get into talking about the 'N' word, you're in shark-infested waters. So, don't be surprised when the shark gets you. First of all, look, I saw Lenny Bruce being taken out a nightclub in San Francisco because he was talking about race, in handcuffs -- OK. But he was political and he made points. If you're going to talk about racism and the 'N' word, you'd better have a punchline, you'd better be funny. PHILLIPS: Roland, do you agree? I mean, it's a disgusting word. mean do you really think -- is it OK for black people to say the 'N' word? (CROSSTALK) PHILLIPS: Go ahead, Roland, Paul, I'll let you come back. MARTIN: At "Chicago Defender," we did a cover story on this when it comes to removing the 'N' word from our vocabulary. The reality is it is there. It was not created by the African-Americans. There is a problem when African-Americans are embracing of the word and saying that it is now something that is not a nice word. But the fact of the mater is this here -- we also must be honest that within certain groups, certain words are said to one another that they say as a group. There are certain words that women can call one another and if a man says it, they look at him differently. There are certain words that Jews call one another, Hispanics call one another, Asians call one another that within their group it is okay. But outside of that group, then it's a problem. That has to be dealt with because we can't act as if it doesn't happen in certain cultures in certain groups. PHILLIPS: You know, it's fascinating, Roland, you talk about this very much from an intellectual perspective and Paul, you do, too, but, Paul, what's interesting about you, is you've taken racism and you have incorporated it into humor. And that's a pretty difficult thing to do. How do you think you ... MOONEY: Well, it's a difficult thing to do but laughter is a cure-all and you better have a punch line. MARTIN: Yes. MOONEY: Let me tell you something, I was on CNN once and they were asking me about when white people say the 'N' word it doesn't offend you and then they asked me why and I said because I like a little salt on my cracker. As long as you can keep the humor in there it's OK. (CROSSTALK) MARTIN: First of all, Paul is correct because the reality is we use comedy to mask our real issues. When Chris Rock was on stage when he said the greatest moment in black history was the Million Man March and Marion Barry was there -- we had a crackhead on stage. Everybody cracked up laughing. But, there are issues that we talk about in our everyday life and behind closed doors. And that's what comedy does. he fact of the matter is for Richards, he simply, he veered away from comedy. That was a personal rant that he went on. And so, that was a lot different than an actual comedy sketch ... MOONEY: But it was a nervous breakdown. The boy had a nervous breakdown. MARTIN: He lost it, absolutely. MOONEY: This wasn't comedy. PHILLIPS: It will be interesting to see where he goes forward from here. Does he take anger management? Does he come forward with some sort testimony? Does he check into rehab? It will be interesting to follow up. But both of you, fantastic perspectives. And Paul, you know, Roland calls me white chocolate, is that OK? MOONEY: What? Oh, you're the black-white lady, I like that. You can be the black-white lady. PHILLIPS: Paul Mooney. All right, outstanding. Paul, Roland, thanks, guys. MARTIN: Thanks, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, many who were appalled before are still appalled, apology or no. Joining me from the Laugh Factory in Los Angeles, where Richards is no longer welcome, comedian Paul Mooney. And from Chicago, radio talk show host Roland Martin. He's also executive editor of "The Chicago Defender." We just lost Paul. We had an IFB connection issue. We're getting that hooked up, Roland. Paul, can you hear us now? PAUL MOONEY, COMEDIAN: Yes. PHILLIPS: OK, good. I've got you both. I was watching it from off there on the camera, I saw that you got hooked in. You heard the whole apology on Letterman, right, Paul? MOONEY: Yes. PHILLIPS: OK. And, Roland, you heard it, too. ROLAND MARTIN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes, I did. PHILLIPS: Let's start with you, Paul. Your reaction to the apology? MOONEY: Weak. PHILLIPS: Why weak? MOONEY: It's not enough, because it doesn't match what he did. I saw the video. I think on David Letterman's show, they should have showed the video. They should have showed it in freeze frame and went step by step. That would have been good therapy for him, because he was like a raving maniac, and he had a complete nervous breakdown on stage. He outed himself. I think that's really his feelings. PHILLIPS: So... MOONEY: He said it on stage, now you know how I feel. PHILLIPS: Interesting. So, Paul, you don't think he got kind of caught up -- you know as a comedian, you get into your schtick. MOONEY: Yes, he didn't get caught up, no. PHILLIPS: OK, this was the real deal? MOONEY: You don't do that. If you're going to be funny, you're funny, racially or otherwise. You have a punch line and you deal with the situation right there, right then. You don't walk off stage. You don't do that and leave the audience. The audience is the -- I mean, come on, we're needy. Comedians are needy. We need that love. That's who you love. You don't walk away from people you love. PHILLIPS: Roland, your reaction? MARTIN: Kyra, Paul is correct when he says it was a weak apology. First and foremost, the "Letterman" show was the wrong forum for that kind of apology. He was not going to get the kind of questioning that he needed. If you heard the audience, they were laughing. They weren't quite sure whether to laugh at what he was saying, to be serious. And it was Seinfeld who had to say, hey, guys this isn't funny. Not only that. Another piece is when you really examine what he said, he not only said 50 years ago we'd have you hanging upside down from a tree. Well, guess what, 50 years ago, Michael Richards would have been in some oven in Germany being baked because he's also Jewish. He also said that in his comments, that I'm a white man. I can go get the cops and have you arrested. And so, his comments went beyond that. But Kyra, we're also making a very big mistake. He has said -- he said, he was heckled. In fact, the people who were there say he was not heckled. There was a large group that was talking. He was angered by them talking. Then after he addressed them, then a couple of the guys said, hey, my boy doesn't think you're funny. Darryl Pitts, who is from Chicago, who was on CNN on Sunday, he gave an eye- witness account. And so, trying to say, well he was being heckled when in fact he wasn't. He was angered because they were talking. PHILLIPS: All right. Just to step aside for a second, I want to ask you about the 'N' word for a minute. Paul, I remember ... (CROSSTALK) MOONEY: Can I say something before you say this. Excuse me. He's not a Jew. He's not a Jew. MARTIN: OK. He's either Catholic or atheist or something. He's not that. And as far as blacks and Jews are concerned, I don't think that two men in a burning house have time to argue. That's my point. MARTIN: I agree. MOONEY: So he's not a Jew. So people make that mistake. He may look it, but looks are deceiving. Bush looks like he's sane, but anyway go ahead, ask what ... PHILLIPS All right. I knew Paul had to get something in there. I was waiting for the ... MOONEY: Of course. PHILLIPS: all right, hold on. We'll step aside from that for a minute. I'm seeing two issues here. I want to get back to the 'N' word in just a second. But, let's get back to the anger part. Let's start with this. Sinbad talked about the issue, about what Michael Richards should do. Let's take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SINBAD, COMEDIAN: That was the worst apology I've ever seen. That apology was a piece of trash. You can't go on Letterman. That's the punk way out. You can't go on Letterman. You have to go to the heart of the people. You have to go to the club. You've got to go up there on black night, Sunday night, it's chocolate city night at the comedy club. You got to walk up there. You got to face that audience. (END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIPS: Paul is that what he needs to do? Does he need to go into the black communities, the black clubs, and say, all right, look, this ... MOONEY: For me, he should go on Oprah. Oprah will get him through it. He should go on Oprah. St. Oprah, St. Oprah will help him. But, look what he should do -- look, I'm an opportunist. I've already wrote a movie for O.J., Michael, and Mel Gibson. Three crazy men and thank god there's no baby. But anyway, look. (LAUGHTER) MOONEY: Look, I've known him for 30 years. What he has to do for me, he has to go to the Apollo. He has to perform at an Apollo audience. If he gets through that with the same act, then I'll forgive him. Or he has to go to Africa and adopt a black baby. PHILLIPS: OK, hold on. He's not going to go to Malawi any time soon, but seriously ... (CROSSTALK) MARTIN: Kyra, your question is a valid question. That is, whether it's Radio 1, whether it's BET, whether it's TV 1 Cable network, in terms of speaking directly to African-Americans. Because, again, when Mel Gibson made his comments, which were not recorded, the Jewish community came down hard on Mel, said, you need to go to a temple, you need to get training, you need to get education. And even in his comments last night on Lebanon, he talked about what was buried inside of him and that's what the real deal is. This is a country where racism is at the heart, it's in our DNA, and we try to suppress those feelings. So, what you saw was the real feelings of Richards coming out and he could not control those feelings. And so he was able to suppress them for all that time. He has to deal with that issue. That's his real problem. PHILLIPS: Well, now, Roland, Paul, you said you've known him for 30 years, has Michael Richards ever made any racist comments to you? have you ever gotten the vibe he doesn't like black people? MOONEY: No, no, no. Hey, look, he tricked me. I'm going to tell you something. I want him to go to Watts at midnight and look at the tower and wear red. If he survives that he can come back and talk to me. PHILLIPS: You know, I'm glad you're finding humor to deal with this because in a way you have to use humor to deal with this. But now Paul, let me ask ... MOONEY: I hear, I hear that -- wait, I hear that Mel is studying to be a rabbi so I'm happy for everybody. Go ahead. PHILLIPS: Roland, I'm glad Paul -- if anything this has given Paul more fodder for his next stand-up gig. MOONEY: I love -- I love every minute of this. PHILLIPS: Now, Paul, you were one of the first, you, if I remember correctly, you were one of the first, or at least the first comedian, to use the 'N' word and I remember seeing you live and you made black people squirm and you made white people squirm. Now obviously you weren't screaming it in an angry way, but you brought the word out. Tell me why you did that and do you regret doing that? MOONEY: No, because I've been called it enough. Where were you when it hurt my feelings when I was a kid. I'm from the south, I was called it enough when I was naive. The first time I saw a sign that said for white only I thought they only rented the rooms to nurses and doctors. PHILLIPS: Roland... MOONEY: Because they wear white. I was naive. But I have an experience with the word. Listen, when you get into talking about the 'N' word, you're in shark-infested waters. So, don't be surprised when the shark gets you. First of all, look, I saw Lenny Bruce being taken out a nightclub in San Francisco because he was talking about race, in handcuffs -- OK. But he was political and he made points. If you're going to talk about racism and the 'N' word, you'd better have a punchline, you'd better be funny. PHILLIPS: Roland, do you agree? I mean, it's a disgusting word. mean do you really think -- is it OK for black people to say the 'N' word? (CROSSTALK) PHILLIPS: Go ahead, Roland, Paul, I'll let you come back. MARTIN: At "Chicago Defender," we did a cover story on this when it comes to removing the 'N' word from our vocabulary. The reality is it is there. It was not created by the African-Americans. There is a problem when African-Americans are embracing of the word and saying that it is now something that is not a nice word. But the fact of the mater is this here -- we also must be honest that within certain groups, certain words are said to one another that they say as a group. There are certain words that women can call one another and if a man says it, they look at him differently. There are certain words that Jews call one another, Hispanics call one another, Asians call one another that within their group it is okay. But outside of that group, then it's a problem. That has to be dealt with because we can't act as if it doesn't happen in certain cultures in certain groups. PHILLIPS: You know, it's fascinating, Roland, you talk about this very much from an intellectual perspective and Paul, you do, too, but, Paul, what's interesting about you, is you've taken racism and you have incorporated it into humor. And that's a pretty difficult thing to do. How do you think you ... MOONEY: Well, it's a difficult thing to do but laughter is a cure-all and you better have a punch line. MARTIN: Yes. MOONEY: Let me tell you something, I was on CNN once and they were asking me about when white people say the 'N' word it doesn't offend you and then they asked me why and I said because I like a little salt on my cracker. As long as you can keep the humor in there it's OK. (CROSSTALK) MARTIN: First of all, Paul is correct because the reality is we use comedy to mask our real issues. When Chris Rock was on stage when he said the greatest moment in black history was the Million Man March and Marion Barry was there -- we had a crackhead on stage. Everybody cracked up laughing. But, there are issues that we talk about in our everyday life and behind closed doors. And that's what comedy does. he fact of the matter is for Richards, he simply, he veered away from comedy. That was a personal rant that he went on. And so, that was a lot different than an actual comedy sketch ... MOONEY: But it was a nervous breakdown. The boy had a nervous breakdown. MARTIN: He lost it, absolutely. MOONEY: This wasn't comedy. PHILLIPS: It will be interesting to see where he goes forward from here. Does he take anger management? Does he come forward with some sort testimony? Does he check into rehab? It will be interesting to follow up. But both of you, fantastic perspectives. And Paul, you know, Roland calls me white chocolate, is that OK? MOONEY: What? Oh, you're the black-white lady, I like that. You can be the black-white lady. PHILLIPS: Paul Mooney. All right, outstanding. Paul, Roland, thanks, guys. MARTIN: Thanks, Kyra.
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